[mdlug] Future presentations.

[Adam Tauno Williams]

On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 12:51 -0500, Garry Stahl wrote:
> > I whole-heartedly *disagree* with the premise of this message. I'm not 
> > a newbie, but I was a newbie, and I interact with a lot of newbies. My 
> > single most emphatic bit of advice of newbies is: SLOW DOWN! Mostly I 
> > watch newbies flail about in veritable panic and throw solutions at 
> > problems in a terribly ineffective manner [like 
> > reinstall-reinstall-reinstall, install-more-packages, etc...]. There 
> > is nothing specific to LINUX or IT about this; slow and methodical 
> > wins the race [in any problem domain]. Stop and *think* about a 
> > problem, start from the bottom and work up [is the cable plugged in, 
> > is the link light on, do I have an IP address, do I have a gateway, 
> > can I ping the gateway...] Even after 20+ years of sys/net-admin I... 
> > start at the bottom and methodically work up. It works. Lunging to a 
> > *theoretical* source of a problem prior to gathering all the 
> > information is a recipe for failure [again: in any problem domain]. 
> > Slow down. Get a cup of coffee. Think. And not only will you be able 
> > to solve more problems you will also learn a great deal more from the 
> > process. 
> Well it helps if you have the level fo computer knowledge to know that 
> such things as IP addresses exist.  See, you said yourself, 20+ years as 
> as system administrator.  That colors your perception of what should be, 
> but frequently is not general knowledge.  All this is obvious to you. 
> To Mr Average computer user "ping" is a golf club.

I have quite a bit of experience with responding to list posts with a
series of multiple specific questions... and getting a reply which
answers one or even none of them.

Anyway, "Mr Average computer user" isn't going to be on a LUG list.  One
[safely] assumes if someone is here they want to learn and participate
in a user community; an important part of learning is teaching oneself
the fundamentals.  Basic networking is *not* hard and doesn't take that
long to learn; all the concepts have analogs in the non-IT world.  And
pertinent to this example - documentation is *abundant*.

> Now, slow down is good advice.  Most people, computer users or not have 
> poor problem solving skills.  I call it do the stupid stuff first.  That 
> is why tech support hates to hear from me.  I'm through the level one 
> script before they start reading.

Sure.  But here is why I think your premise is flawed:  you are
equivocating help-desk with a user community.  One isn't the other and
to anticipate the same responses from both is incorrect.  A user
community is never going to provide the same level of hand-holding as a
help desk;  a help desk will try to coax relevant information out of the
helpee, a user community shouldn't be expected to do that.  The burden
is on the helpee.

> Not everyone is so gifted.  Personally I would never let system 
> administrator teach anything. 

I've taught professionally and in a volunteer capacity; and been well
received in both cases.

> It isn't universal knowledge.

It should be, this is 2012.  Not having a basic understanding of
information technology is not acceptable.  Just like civics, chemistry,
and physics - these are now components of our environment.

>   It should be, but guess 
> what?  Troubleshooting, like critical thinking is emphatically not 
> taught in the public schools.  You have had 20 years to correct that.

Off-topic, but I don't take credit for that.  My family taught me that.
Personally I don't expect schools to teach it.  Schools are for
knowledge transfer, that is the only thing they are good for.  Burdening
them with other tasks, at which they will inevitably fail, is a mistake.

> I'm not going to refute this point by point as I don't think you 
> actually understood what I wrote, 

I think I understand very clearly.  I disagree.
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