[mdlug] Router - now power.

[Aaron Kulkis]

Robert Adkins wrote:
>>> 	Can you prove this?
>>>
>> With direct statements from the company, No.
>>
>> But why can't any other auto manufacturer on the planet 
>> (including Japanese and Korean competitors with much lower 
>> legacy pension and labor costs) produce a competing vehicle 
>> in the same price range?
>>
> 
> 	The Honda Civic Hybrid and the Chevy Malibu (Which is actually a
> larger vehicle to begin with) are both in the same price range for base
> models. There's barely $4,000 difference between the base Prius and the base
> Malibu.

While this is a few years old, the VP of AutoChannel
was (and remains) convinced that in 2005, the Prius
wasn't being sold for what it cost to make.(*)  There was
also rampant and persistent belief that the Japanese
government was defraying some of Toyota's cost -- so as
to avoid Toyota from being hit by anti-dumping regulations.

(*) <http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/01/15/005133.html>


In any case, the larger the vehicle, the larger the mark-up
(both in absolute terms, and as a percentage of sale price).

There's not much difference in the cost of materials,
components and labor between a sub-compact and a full-size
sedan... less than $1000 in steel.  Turn signals, head lights,
etc. are the same across the board.

ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL:
Profit margins on small vehicles are narrow.
Profit margins on mid-size vehicles are middling.
Profit margins on large vehicles are also large.

So, it appears to me that GM has declined to sell
a compact car at a loss, and instead decided that
they'll only sell larger hybrids, at reduced profits,
so that product line is being sold at a loss.

> 
> 	Are you just unaware of that or is your definition of price range
> incredibly narrow?
> 
> 	Yeah, the Prius, on its 3rd Generation, is currently the lowest
> price Hybrid that I am aware of.

Possibly 3rd generation of body-panels and interior.  But drive
trains tend to be extremely stable in the auto industry -- and
developing, producing 3 and shutting down 2 different drive train
models in 10 years would have extremely high overhead costs.

>                                They were the first to the market and have
> really worked on that technology much longer than Chevy and Honda has. Plus,
> I believe that the economy of scale is workin in Toyota's favor, the last
> numbers I heard/read showed that the Prius was still outselling the Civic
> and Malibus Hybrids considerably.
> 
>> Barring the employment of tireless and goodwilled magic elves 
>> who don't demand to be paid, the only logical conclusion is 
>> that Toyota is taking a loss on all of this.
>>
> 
> 	Only if you actually throw logic out of the window and decide to
> settle on conspiracy.

No conspiracy needed.  Selling cars below cost to garner customers
for new automotive products in the American market places
is a well-established practive among Japanese automakers.

> 
>> It's not like any of this is new technology.
>> Hydrocarbon engine-electric motor hybrid drive has been used 
>> by navies around the world for over 100 years.
>> (submarines), and the individual components (diesel or 
>> batteries, DC motors, gasoline engines, differentials being 
>> used in dual-input, single-output mode are neither novel, nor 
>> nor poorly understood technology -- in fact, they are all 
>> very mature -- the oldest and most mature of them all being 
>> batteries, being close to 200 years old now.
> 
> 	Different scales have a great deal to do with the differences in
> performance and output.

I'll say this...hybrid cars make a lot more sense than
all-electric vehicles.  Whether they actually result in
better gas mileage is debatable (tracking costs by actual
owners vs. the projected mileage of dynamometer tests
is showing that the advantage is far slimmer than what
proponents said.  That being said, in areas like Michigan,
I can see a REALLY good use for hybrids... in the winter,
as long as you're not parked in deep snow, you can get
the vehicle started under conditions when your starter
motor can't start the gasoline engine -- DC motors
accelerating the entire vehicel, however slowly, allow
a vehicle with a manual transmission to be "push started"
without the assistance of another vehicle or people on
foot having to push the vehicle until it's up to
5-10 MPH to get the motor going.

Right now, my car is dead in my driveway because the
starter motor failed -- without the typical degraded
performance which typically precedes starter failure.
All I can say is, I'm glad it happened here in my
driveway instead of someplace else.