[mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] OT - IR jamming

[Ingles, Raymond]

> From: Aaron Kulkis

> It's mostly up to the Iraqi government at this point.

 And before that? We should have plans for this kind of thing. It's not
like it took a genius to predict an insurgency.

> >  Combat is way different from non-combat. The Geneva Convention articles we're
> > talking about cover when you're at war but *not* in combat.
> 
> If you're an illegal combatant, your status doesn't get elevated
> just because you were captured.  You're still a complete piece
> of **** as far the GC is concerned.

 Yes, but I was responding to you talking about someone "videotaping an attack".
If that's not combat, could you clarify what you're talking about?

> >  We prosecuted it as torture after WWII. Works for me.
> 
> Waterboarding was prosecuted after WWII???
> 
> If so, then why haven't the opponents publicized it?

 Um... they have.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834

 Actually, I learned something there:

"On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced 'a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk.' The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier."

> >  The problem is that all the other stories I see indicate to me a systemic
> > problem. It's happening too often, and these are just the stories that we
> > end up hearing about.
> 
> If it's "systemic" then why is the same system harshly
> prosecuting both those who engage in actual torture, and
> the NCO's and officers in charge of the bad actors?

 Just because public examples are made doesn't mean that there are effective
measures in place to keep the problems from happening. If the incentive and
discipline system is broken then just punishing the more embarassing examples
isn't going to solve the problem. The fact that it's happening so often is an
indication that there's a training/discipline problem going on.

 I don't automatically accept the statements by the defendents at face value
(BTW, Janis Karpinski was demoted to Colonel, not E-1), but considering what's
known about how this administration has conducted their affairs, I'm not going
to immediately dismiss the idea that the problems went higher than the
Brigadier General level but scapegoats were chosen.

> You seem to forget that the initial reports were by
> other soldiers in the same unit, and that evidence
> was being amassed by an Inspector General with the
> cooperation of other soldiers in the unit.

 I've never held a low opinion of our soldiers, despite what you seem to think.
And the codes *do* forbid that sort of thing. My problem is that when so many
soldiers are violating those codes, and in similar ways, it points to a
widespread issue. (Note carefully: "widespread" is not the same as "universal".)

> I really don't care how much a terrorist suffers.
> They can be skinned alive then drawn and quartered
> for all I care.

 Me too - with the caveat that *sometimes*, treating them better than that is
more useful politically. They don't deserve better treatment, but sometimes
it can suit *our* purposes not to torture.

> >  That is the first I've heard of such a "German component". Can you
> > point out some links to more information about that?
> 
> I came across it recently.
> Apparently it's rarely mentioned because the experiment
> broke down so early [the American test subjects behaving
> even worse than they expected of German subjects].

 Well, there was a fictional German movie *based on* the Stanford experiment
that came out in 2001 according to the IMDB. Is that what you're thinking of?

> > Torture may help occasionally and tactically in some cases, but I'm
> > arguing that it's a major *strategic* error.
> 
> Right now in Iraq, the average citizen trusts American troops
> more than anyone from the Iraqi (local) Police ("IP"), the
> Iraqi National Police ("NP") or Iraqi Army ("IA").

 ...but not the militias. Muqtada al-Sadr, for example, is even more popular
among Shiites and a large reason for the drop in violence since the "Surge" has
been his decision to call a cease-fire. It's not fair, and it's not right, but
the U.S. has to be 

> One of the more difficult problems to solve right now is to
> get some clamp down on the culture of corruption and bribery

 That is, indeed, a major issue, and it comes from the tribal nature of the
cultures involved. Trying to get them to see themselves as Iraqis and not
just members of their clan or tribe is a major issue, and until that's solved
the other problems aren't going to be reduced to a manageable level.

 I'd suggest reading David Sloan Wilson's "Evolution For Everyone" for some
interesting thoughts about that.

> which is commonplace throughout much of the world (even
> western Europe! -- as the Oil for Food scandal at the U.N.,
> and a similar culture of corruption at the World Bank
> demonstrate... almost all of the worst offenders are from
> supposedly civilized western European countries.)

 Nor is bribery and corruption unknown in the U.S. It's going to happen so
long as human beings are involved, but Western countries do better than most
at avoiding it at an endemic level.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                             (313) 227-2317
   
 "Destruction is *easy*. Even stupid people and weather formations can
 do it. If you think you're so cool, try *improving* something." -- Me
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