[mdlug-discuss] [mdlug] OT - IR jamming

[Ingles, Raymond]

> From: Aaron Kulkis
> Raymond Ingles wrote:
> > Aaron has stated
> > specifically that people nearby when an IED goes off are routinely
> > picked up on suspicion. But there hasn't been any legal scheme for
> > handling them until very very recently.
> 
> That's true, but that doesn't warrant a trip to Gitmo...or anything
> more than the local Iraqi Police station.

 What about the legal scheme for handling them? How long has that been in
place? I read about cases where people get shipped off to Gitmo (or worse,
to places like Syria - Google Maher Arar) on incredibly flimsy evidence with
no recourse at all.

> If someone is video recording an attack, there's a
> reason for it.

 Combat is way different from non-combat. The Geneva Convention articles we're
talking about cover when you're at war but *not* in combat.

> >  But even at that point, torture shouldn't be the default, go-to
> > tactic.
> 
> Which source told you that this is the default tactic?

 I was unclear - "that point" meant "after a tribunal has determined the GC
doesn't apply".

> It's been used on THREE people

 ...that they're willing to admit to. I recall you recently telling someone
that they were "just not understanding the mindset of bureaucrats and other
power-hungry maniacs who run for elected office." I don't understand why you're
suspicious of market regulators but totally willing to take the word of people
who've demonstrated a willingness to mislead (as well as a goodly helping of
what I can only see as gross incompetence at times).

> -- and that's subject to
> weather scaring someone silly constitutes torture, or if
> torture requires actual physical abuse and/or prolonged
> mental-anguish.

 We prosecuted it as torture after WWII. Works for me.

> >  The treatment of detainees has so far been managed with stupefying
> > incompetence in many cases. Abu Ghraib,
> 
> The activities at Abu Ghraib were being investigated FOR PROSECUTION
> for several weeks already by the time one of the TV networks put
> out the information.  I know of NO military personnel who defended
> what happened at Abu Ghraib.

 The problem is that all the other stories I see indicate to me a systemic
problem. It's happening too often, and these are just the stories that we
end up hearing about.

> > Without clear limits people in guard positions will do brutal
> > things.
> 
> Yes, the military is aware of the Milgram experiment.

 That's not the Stanford experiment - Milgram's was about people willing
to inflict fatal harm on people in response to orders. Frankly, given
what I've heard about Abu Ghraib - where the soldiers were encouraged to
help break the prisoners - your reference is ironically appropriate.

> Abu Ghraib was a leadership failure all the way up
> through three or four levels of command.  Personally,
> I was appalled at what happened there -- because the
> treatment was committed against detainees without
> regard for who was a member of a Geneva Convention
> protected group, and who was not.

 That's what bothered me about it, too. I *agree* that terrorists don't
deserve any better, but we need to be *sure* that the people we're doing
that stuff to *are* terrorists.

>  >         This is human nature - look up the Stanford prison 
> experiment.
> 
> I'm well aware of it... shut down after only 1 week of what
> was supposed to be a 2-week experiment (and the 2nd half,
> to be conducted in Germany, was never performed.  The
> experiment was to investigate whether German citizens were
> more likely to obey illegal orders than American citizens.

 That is the first I've heard of such a "German component". Can you
point out some links to more information about that?

> I don't think you really have any clear idea of the kind
> of enemy which we are fighting.

 I sure do. The problem is that the people who we're trying to win over
don't, and we need to make it very clear to them that we are different.
Torture may help occasionally and tactically in some cases, but I'm
arguing that it's a major *strategic* error.

 Sincerely,

 Ray Ingles                                              (313) 227-2317

   "Don't try to frighten us with your closed-source ways, Lord Gates.
  Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure
     up more internet server market share, or given you clairvoyance
 enough to find all of the bugs in Win... *cough* *gag*" - J. R. Rimmer
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